Curse

Mercury Angel · Sep 03, 2005, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

I fail to see how you can relate anything I said to a comment from the Westboro Baptist Church (Isn't this also the Church more commonly known as "God Hates Fags"?).

Perhaps you could reword this? I can't see where you are going with it in relation to my post.

Was saying it'd be pointless to argue about some out of the way extremist church that almost all others denounce.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

I know people who were raised without any superstitions by their parents, and they currently are not superstitious in the least...

I believe that your upbringing determines how superstitious you are. If you are raised with parents who are averted to silly fears, then you will have disdain for them too. If your parents don't care either way and they don't drain the childish beliefs out of you, you may become superstitious. And, obviously, if your parents promote those kinds of things you would believe in them.

They have none at all?
They never mention 'good luck/bad luck'?
Paranoia over the dark?
So on and so forth?

Even animals can draw illogical conclusions about things. Pigeons given food in 15 second intervals (no qualifier; they got it regardless of what they were or weren't doing), and 6 out of 8 developed consistent behaviours they would perform repeatedly.

A superstition can be defined as-
"An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome."

Which makes those pigeons superstitious. They had no control over the feedings, yet they 'believed' they did.

Now, as for superstitious luck;
Crossing your fingers and charms are one of the most common things that come to mind.
However, what about yelling/shouting 'Come on! You can do it!' and things like that to inanimate objects, like a television (you may be shouting to a person on TV, but seeing as they're not really there, you're talking to a TV >.>), to cheer them on?
Whereas, with a pep rally to motivate people, you could rationalize it; Talking to people that can't hear you and thinking it helps in the least is totally irrational.

And that's really all I can think of off the top of my head really.

You're sure they don't do ANYTHING similar to the above?

Edit: The pigeon experiment is a well-known one done by B.F. Skinner, for those looking for references.

Sagius Truthbarron · Sep 03, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by zehly

Are Mormons Christians?

*EDIT*
Can you be a Christian and a Vampire? I wanna be a vampire. I like blood. That's how I roll.

Mormons are, mainly appearently, "The Latter Day Saints" (Rather, this is the largest denomination of Mormonism).

Yes. From the information I have gathered they think that after Jesus was killed in Jerusalem that he went to North America and started a civilization of religious Indians or something.

From what I can tell, they think that everyone is a god after they die, that Adam (From the Garden of Eden) is the "Ancient of Days" and that he is a foremost god.

They also seem to think that the knowledge in the Bible has been extensively corrupted and that they should rewrite the Bible, a work they have yet to complete. Thus, they mainly use "The Book of Mormon" compossed by various civilians and government officials in Utah(?).

I have no idea how extensively they fit Jesus into their religion.

SOT · Sep 03, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

I reccomend we debate the point of pointless debate

Xue Yi Liang · Sep 03, 2005, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

I reccomend we debate the point of pointless debate

What's your point?

ManadartheHealer · Sep 03, 2005, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Ray Bill

...Some of the most despicable displays of evil in world history have been done on a primarily secular stage. Hitler and Pol Pot come to mind...

Actually, Hitler was a christian. He didn't flaunt it quite as much as contemporary leaders (Bush, etc.), and he didn't use it as an excuse, but it is definitely present in his writing/speech

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

They have none at all?
They never mention 'good luck/bad luck'?
Paranoia over the dark?
So on and so forth?

Nope, they have none at all.

Although, a small degree of paranoia over the dark over real things is not superstition, i.e. you don't like the dark because you cannot see if there are other people out there (if your out in an alley or something, not at home in your bed

)

Beta Ray Bill · Sep 03, 2005, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

I reccomend we debate the point of pointless debate

It's not pointless if someone ends up seeing things from a different point of view. There's nothing worse to the intellectual mind than to think you don't need to learn anything new. As soon as you become sure of what you believe about any particular subject, you render yourself useless to the intellectual community.

I have no problem putting my arguments up on the dartboard. If they are sound, they will withstand the attack. If not, they will burst into so much hot air for everyone to see.

Personally, I make every effort to at least be honest enough with myself to reexamine my beliefs when presented with my own poor arguments. I hold everyone else to the same standard. It's those who deny that their logic balloons have burst I cannot have respect for.

Beta Ray Bill · Sep 03, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

Actually, Hitler was a christian. He didn't flaunt it quite as much as contemporary leaders (Bush, etc.), and he didn't use it as an excuse, but it is definitely present in his writing/speech

Actually, he was not a Christian. He was, in practice, an occultist and had very well documented obsessions with the occult. He may have professed Christianity at certain points in his writings, but his actions during WW2 were targeted at least in a small part toward Christian churches as well as Jews. "The Hiding Place," written by Corrie Ten Boom, was an account of Christian sympathizers of the Jews receiving the same treatment (ie. concentration camps, abusive treatment, execution, etc.) as the Jews they were trying to protect. He also dismantled many Christian churches in Germany which did not preach support for him, and the Bible was a primary target for the book-burning sessions he instituted.

ManadartheHealer · Sep 03, 2005, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Ray Bill

Christian sympathizers of the Jews receiving the same treatment (ie. concentration camps, abusive treatment, execution, etc.) as the Jews they were trying to protect. He also dismantled many Christian churches in Germany which did not preach support for him,

Anybody who sypathized with the Jews or didn't preach support for him would obviously be in danger. Just because there were a couple Christians in there didn't further your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Ray Bill

...and the Bible was a primary target for the book-burning sessions he instituted...

Edit:See My post below

I must point out though that being a Christian and acting like a decent christian are two very different things. Many people profess a religion and don't really follow it at all.

Mercury Angel · Sep 03, 2005, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

Nope, they have none at all.

I find that hard to believe, but I suppose there was never really a point to debating anecdotal evidence. [Edit: That is not to say it's worthless. Just that it doesn't hold nearly as much value to other people as it does the person who experienced it.]
It's not as if it really matters either;
Studies cited in New Scientist SUPPORT, not prove or disprove.

And there's a lot of support that humans are biologically hard-wired for a vast number of things; Not everyone fits though.

The "Big 7" universal facial expressions, for example;
Anger, Fear, Happiness, Surprise, Disgust, and Sadness

Regardless of your culture, pretty much everyone is capable of recognizing those. The exceptions are extremes, people who are missing portions of their brains, or can't see (Although that's debateable; Some are quite adept and making things out through touch, and learn to mimic facial expressions in that manner. I don't think genuine facial expressions are going to be able to be analyzed for long, though, as most emotions are going to turn to shock or disgust as someone runs their hand over your face o.O), and so on and so forth.

The variance in cultures comes in what emotion is brought about by a given situation, and how exactly that emotion effects you.

And I'm losing my train of thought [so much so, I'm fairly confused as to the purpose of my post, while editing it] , so I'll wrap this up;
It's really a non-issue. o_o

Have a good day all.

ManadartheHealer · Sep 03, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Well, using Wikipedia (more or less accurate

), I found this little thing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Hitler's policies emphasised the importance of family life: Men were the "breadwinners", while women's priorities were to be "church, kitchen and children"

Hmmm...interesting

Divinitys Creature · Sep 03, 2005, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Exactly my point. The fact of the matter is unless I can show you a dragon, my statement is merely an assertion. No matter what evidence I provide, dragons eggs, scales etc, you cannot be entirely sure that dragons exist. I am utilising specific events to reach a general conclusion. To be entirely sure dragons exist I would need to do more than this, I would need to show you a dragon. It may require me to search every location in the known universe. Because it may be possible for a dragon to be in any of these locations.

Now physics itself can be compared to the search for the dragon. Physics is based on models and imperfect concepts. Physics and science in general derives general conclusions from specific events. In order for somone to be entirely sure that science/physics works, they would be required to test it indefinitely.

Most people will except what science has to say as truth. Why do people do this? Well it is almost impossible for a person to question everything at each step in their lives. So if people except what science has to say as truth when in fact it is nothing more than a set of possible conclusions then some element of faith was involved i.e. faith is the process which takes you from possible to definite.

So do you agree that when you say the Sun will set and rise tommorrow, you are on some level taking a leap of faith, no matter how small it may be.

(note this is linked to my original question i.e. how do you know the Sun will rise and set tommorrow?)

If you said dragons exited without knowing for sure you may have to search everywehere to find one. You take a leap of faith in believing the sun will rise - technically no. Because the sun is up for someone nearly all the time and they can tell me it is up for them they can call me and tell me the earth is still spinning. I can have a continuous stream of data confirming the pattern of events which lead to the sun rising is still hapenning. There is a minute chance that something we have know knowledge of will consume the sun and it will not rise or the earth will stop spinning.

Beta Ray Bill · Sep 04, 2005, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

Well, using Wikipedia (more or less accurate ), I found this little thing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Hitler's policies emphasised the importance of family life: Men were the "breadwinners", while women's priorities were to be "church, kitchen and children"

Hmmm...interesting

Interesting point. In truth, the Hitler Youth were looked upon as a moral vanguard for Hitler's social policy. One thing to note about this is that it is really no different from Western societal ideals of the time. Even non-Christian Americans held much the same standard as Hitler's Germany in the late 1930s.

His evil stemmed from demonizing a particular subculture within Germany's borders. Jews were financial stalwarts and always seemed to be at the forefront of influence, even at the disadvantage of non-Jewish Germans. I don't know where he developed his particular anti-Semitic philosophies except to say I believe I've heard his family was one of the disadvantaged due to interactions with Jews. I could be wrong, though.

Sagius Truthbarron · Sep 04, 2005, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by zehly

Can you be a Christian and a Vampire? I wanna be a vampire. I like blood. That's how I roll.

No, not really. Most religions do not condone the consuption of blood. Some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses and most forms of Judaism and Muslom do not even aprove of blood transfuses (Although Jehovah's Witnesses do condone some forms of medical blood manipulation, such as blood particle transfusions while whole blood is unacceptable in their eyes.)

So, no, you probably couldn't be a Christian vampire in most sences. Though, I think some mainstream denominations do accept the eating of foods with blood in them. Blood sausages seem to be a delicacy to, if I'm not mistaken, Baptists(?). So if you could survive on Sausages I'm sure you could get along with that denomination just fine.

Thanas · Sep 04, 2005, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinitys Creature

If you said dragons exited without knowing for sure you may have to search everywehere to find one. You take a leap of faith in believing the sun will rise - technically no. Because the sun is up for someone nearly all the time and they can tell me it is up for them they can call me and tell me the earth is still spinning. I can have a continuous stream of data confirming the pattern of events which lead to the sun rising is still hapenning. There is a minute chance that something we have know knowledge of will consume the sun and it will not rise or the earth will stop spinning.

You've completely missed the point. The fact of the matter is that you believe the Sun will rise and set every day because physics/scence says it will. Physics/Science however can only make a finite number of observations to confirm this i.e it derives general conclusions from specific events, not all events. You fail to see that all events implies past and present and future. Without recording the Suns behaviour for its entire lifetime you can never be entirely sure of its behaviour. Thus in expecting the Sun to follow its regular pattern of behaviour you are taking a leap of faith.

Divinitys Creature · Sep 04, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

You've completely missed the point. The fact of the matter is that you believe the Sun will rise and set every day because physics/scence says it will. Physics/Science however can only make a finite number of observations to confirm this i.e it derives general conclusions from specific events, not all events. You fail to see that all events implies past and present and future. Without recording the Suns behaviour for its entire lifetime you can never be entirely sure of its behaviour. Thus in expecting the Sun to follow its regular pattern of behaviour you are taking a leap of faith.

Yep, science only offers increasingly accurate estimations of the truth. If we learn enough to build a stars of our own (fusion reactions that we have made) or use our observations of stars we can see all over the universe from birth to death then we can be confident how the sun will behave. It is still just theory but observations heavily support it. Basically we reach as close to truth as we can ever get with the help of science. And having that fact that it's only just a theory and something unkown could still be at work will always be with us.

Science is systematic and makes full use of existing evidence. Faith fills the gap between what we are quite sure we know and what we can't explain, and the fact that science can't deliver an absolute truth.

Thanas · Sep 04, 2005, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinitys Creature

Faith fills the gap between what we are quite sure we know and what we can't explain, and the fact that science can't deliver an absolute truth.

This is what I was getting at. Faith does indeed fill the gaps. Not just on a scientific level but on many other levels too. Without faith we wouldn't be able to function properly, we would constantly question everything and never a reach a single conclusion. Faith permeates our lives. Thus to say that Atheism does not involve any form of faith is sheer folly.

zehly · Sep 05, 2005, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Do you guys think that vampires even exist?

Where do the ideas of Necromancers come from?

There is a book I know of, that if you don't know of, you should seek out yourself, called "Necronomicon." There is a nice connection between this book, and the Book of Satan. (read: Satanic Bible).

The tide of the discussion now turns towards the more occult, than that which is common.

*evil grin*

Mistress Eyahl · Sep 05, 2005, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Ooooh, vampires. Good subject.

*cracks knuckles*

The thing with vampires is, they totally make sence. I have every reason to believe that many many years ago before David Attenborough and TV explained everything to us, that there could have been a sickness which had symptoms very much like the symptoms we write that Vampires have. Lets look at the really cool evidence.
List of things we think are connected with being a vampire:

Pale Skin
See in the Dark
Hear extraordinarily well
Very strong
Never gets ill
Never dies or ages really slowly
Has to drink blood every day from a mortal
Hates Daylight
Hates crosses
Hates Garlick
Hates Holy Water

Funnily enough, 90% of those can be explianed.

My theory is this. If you take a person and look at his blood, you'll see it's made up of platelets, red blood cells and white blood cells. I think most of us won't need an explanation of what these parts all do so lets imagine someone who developed an unatural high count of white blood cells and a low count of red blood cells. You have most of your explanations for vampires right there. I'll use the bullet points to explain it better.

Pale Skin - With a low red blood cell count, they would of course appear to have pale skin
See in the Dark - Vitamin A helps us to see. It's found most commonly in meats and it also works to help our immune system. The massive intake of meat/blood would boost this.
Hear extraordinarily well - Bear with me lol, I aint that smart

Very strong - This can be connected with Vitamin A. It helps bone growth, and cell reproduction in places like the lungs.
Never gets ill - This is related to the high count of white blood cells. Vitamin A also regulates the immune system to keep us healthy.
Never dies or ages really slowly - Believe me on this. Scientists know that it is actually oxygen which degenerates cells. It's actually oxygen that makes our organs age including our skin. The very thing which keeps us alive, prevents us from everlasting life. Now, someone who has a very very low count of red blood cells, won't have oxygen travelling through their body all the time, and therefore their body will not degenerate as fast.
Has to drink blood every day from a mortal - Most people who are into vampires know that when a vampire needs to drink blood it's not because he is thirsty. It's because he's suffocating. Their own blood can't carry enough oxygen so they supplement themselves once a day with someone elses. This also explains why vampires who might feed a lot, will feel more empowered. More oxygen to the muscles will put them on a strength high.
Hates Daylight - This could be many things. An increase in Vitamin A equels an increase in sight so the harsh light of daylight might have been too much and sufferes would have prefered dusk or dawn. Also the lack of red blood cells leaves people anemic and weak which might have left them feeling vunerable to the harshness of daylight or just daylight activites.
Hates crosses
Hates Garlick
Hates Holy Water - These three I think, are to do with what happened in the past to people who might have developed an illness like this. Basically, these were the methods used to purge these people either from the town or village, or methods people and priests used to try and cure them.

To sum up, there's no smoke without fire. I think there could have been an illness back whenever, that made people extraordinarily pale, and live an unnatural extra 10 -20 years or so... who seemed strong and never liked to go out in daylight, and who for some strange reason started killing the livestock and drinking it's blood. Who knows.
What I do know though, is this simple equation of high white blood cells, low red blood cells, accounts for the MAJOR things we relate to vampires. Aging, drinking blood, never getting sick etc.

Anyway, you probably think I know far too much about this and you're reaching for your crucifix's, but I enjoy books with vampires in them, and it just suddenly hit me one day that it all seemed to make sence.

Thanas · Sep 05, 2005, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Hmm isn't a lack of red blood cells called anemia and doesn't it lead to drowsiness and general fatigue? This is in contridiction with vampires being very strong.

Mistress Eyahl · Sep 05, 2005, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Hmm isn't a lack of red blood cells called anemia and doesn't it lead to drowsiness and general fatigue? This is in contridiction with vampires being very strong.

Hence the sleeping all day and only venturing out at night. And there's more daylight than 12 hours.
Anyway being strong could have been made up. It's truth to myth, myth to legend.. with a few wives tales thrown in. Besides, it was the increase in Vitamin A that strengthened their bones that interested me.

Feel free to argue with me, I'm not holding a sign saying vampires are real so..

Oh, and being anemic isn't necessarily about having a low red blood count, it's about having a low iron count so consuming red meat would counter attack this problem.